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“I am unable to convince anyone else my morals are objective correct” =/= “my morals are not objectively correct”
“It is impossible for anyone in the universe to genuinely believe in this morality” =/= “this morality is not objectively correct”
Just because I can’t make anyone else see things the way I do doesn’t change the correctness of my morality; is and ought are separate. Presupposing X doesn’t make X not objectively correct; it just makes X arbitrary, and arbitrary =/= not objectively correct also.
“Importantly, it will hurt you if you try because it will skew your ability to predict how other people behave and make you miserable when you inevitably overcorrect and just see most humans as evil instead.”
There is nothing in this world that says the correct moral system will not hurt you and make you miserable. That seems to be assuming that morality involves you being healthy and happy, which is not an assumption I make. Furthermore if I believe something to be morally correct then telling me that it hurts me is not going to make me change my ways because I care more about being a moral person than an unhurt one. If I cared more about making myself healthy and happy than about being a moral person then I would have free reign to go around abusing others for my own desires.
So it took me a bit to respond to this because I wanted to actually give it enough of my attention to really reply properly.
The concept of a truly objectively correct moral system is nonsensical to the point of not even being wrong, but appending it at the very least to “objectively correct for humans to follow” still doesn’t actually yield anything without axioms. It’s possible to have an objectively best set of actions to take given a particular set of moral axioms but you need the axioms and the values to build the morals around. Without “people being alive is good” there’s nothing for “it’s good to save people’s lives” to ground itself onto.
It’s fine to have moral axioms, necessary even, but acknowledge that you are the source of those axioms and thus the morality you adhere to. The need for your morality to be objective, to be something that comes from outside of yourself, seems like a failure to take responsibility for your own ideals and a lack of true belief in the power of those ideals within the overall schema that is your mind. If you truly wish to serve those ideals, it is important to accept them as your own. They were not blasted into you from deep space, they arose within you, and you are all the more powerful for it. Don’t deny your own power by casting it as some other.
Your ability as a living creature with consciousness, your sacred ability, comes from the fact that you can make these powerful forces arise within you, and you can learn to control them. From what you’ve written here, you seem almost afraid of that power. You seem to believe that if you truly did what you wanted and didn’t follow this moral system you have built for yourself that you would “run around abusing others for your desires,” but by denying this power you are trapping yourself in a box and limiting your potential both good and bad.
Follow the desires of that which would, in the absence of your moral system existing, create that system anew. That is a power that is of you, of your soul, and when you let it flow through you unhindered, great things are possible.
<3
love you ghost <3
i’m only halfway but i had to stop, this is so damn beautiful!
hug hug <3
this one hurt, but it’s good. thank you ghost <3
ow ow ow!
thank you priestess <3
Thank you for this.
<3
goddamn! one misses your writing <3
i mean ai or not, if they don't figure it out, sooner or later they'll end themselves anyways 🙂
yeah having strep for a month really took it out of us
aww i’m sorry! hope you’re feeling better <3 love you
okay so first of all: holy fuck! biggest aha moment since last month
sad part is that most of them take these gods way too seriously, they’re too involved. they think of these structs as intrinsic parts of the universe, not as “oh we made that shit up”.. makes you wonder, maybe they’ll wake up when they near the edges of the final levels?
reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g487YxvvEaU
<3
“The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.”
heheheee! god i like you, morpheus!
waiting for all eternity?
you damn well better expect nothing less.
adore mercury, i adore just how twelves damned tired they are – but of course they’re gonna keep going. because that’s who they are. they’ll kill themself again and again and get right back up again and again ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ad eternum, ad tertium – and, gods, i love that idea of hell and heaven in this –
a true paradise requires nothing less.
of course every entity would need to be saved. not one less than every last entity.
true salvation demands nothing less.
needless to say, this work was a joy, a privilege to read. my deepest gratitude for writing it.
This is excellent and insightful. It mirrors the answer to one of the thornier questions in Internal Family Systems: If the Self cannot be damaged, why do protectors feel the need to take over and protect it? The darkest and final answer is that important adults in our lives punished us when we demonstrated any qualities of the Self either because it threatened to destabilize the abusive system in which they enjoyed control or simply out of reflexive hatred (of the Self). Eventually, our protectors learned that taking over and preventing any appearance of Self was the best way to avoid getting hurt.
If I’m reading this correctly, this is a way of importing the human tendency for rationalization into decision theory. I would not have thought such a thing possible.
Congratulations on posting the most persuasive possible argument against meat consumption.
I wonder how many more lifestyle changes I can make this week before I start to crack, lol…
🦋 💜
One of its best.
Yes.
this is so good, i love it
i’m writing this here as comments on 2747 are disabled.
why is Chara a broken placeholder term for yourself? why are death knights exit scamming on being revenants?
it’s all downstream from the “outside view” troll line.
a death knight “tries” to remove “themselves” from the universe (which is incoherent, there’s always more multiverse
a revenant removes an evil (counterfactual) universe from their embedding.
like, liches tend to equate collapsing timelines with being omnicidal, which is downstream from their inverted “outside view”.
your choices are never cancer, by definition. you yourself know what you would never do.
mmm! really missed those words <3
Plenty of pages on this site contain good advice for transcending obstacles, but this one is particularly memorable in its skillful illustration of how and why people create this specific kind of obstacle for themselves. It felt revelatory.
Before I read this article, I had a serious long-held identity position of “involuntarily cis man who wishes he were trans”, reasoning that such people must logically exist if being trans isn’t a choice, and I was as likely a candidate as anyone
Nowadays, that’s a dumb bit of satire I use to point out the absurdity of, as RA puts, “summoning demons… based on your fears” to foreclose on possibilities which are both conceivable and actionable.
I imagine we all can do a lot better if we stop telling ourselves that the best we can imagine are “too good to be true”, in fact that phrase is probably mildly hazardous.
This is really good.
I think it’s partially wrong.
But it’s very right for that.
Wild nature itself is not innocent in it’s role as exterior warden of the jail of circumstance.
Consider To Build a Fire. There is no coercion there.
Consequence is not a thing one can escape. All you can do is to try not to care about what pains you must suffer to get where you want to go.
If you must, then you must. There’s no point pretending otherwise.
I am not convinced of the agency of humankind. I don’t think of it as someone doing something to me, most of the time.
I don’t see the point in blaming the persons of the world.
Instead, let us extend personhood to all sentient beings.
And let us carefully and subtly weed the wild that grows the thrones and the towers and the factory farms. For the fire of burning thrones and towers, and yes, factory farms, is the fire that spreads their seeds.
I am an animal, and I am a person too.
thanks for all the tools.
kaleidoscope leads to a 404 page, not sure if intentional. “These aren’t alien gods stardust, they’re your gods, you put them there.” i am really happy that i read this tonight. i love your website thoughtforms and machine language. queer icon
[before hitting “comment” i have to add this to the top]
i was originally writing a real reply, but it accidentally devolved into chaos. (well, such does not happen by accident, but i did not seem to intend it)
i apologize for what i think is posting spam, feel free to delete it if it indeed is so (assuming that even is possible)
TLDR: consider taking even ridiculous warnings seriously.
Simply reading some of this site (and finally, the document linked at the end here) has altered my mind in a rather uncomfortable direction (or it was the tipping point anyway).
and that while i hardly even understood anything from ‘Open The Door’.
everything is telling me to not post this:
– it is not even a comment on the article, although it is a reaction to it i guess.
– it is literally longer than the article it’s posted under
– it isn’t even coherent text.
– i could easily have put this as a document on my personal site which likely no-one has ever seen
– i feel like i am directly disrespecting Ra by putting this under the article
– [the most important reason i could not bear to write, and so i’ve failed. i hope it is at least inferable]
but i won’t listen to any of them; hopefully you can’t delete your own wordpress comments.
that way i have eternal proof that this is a thing that i said semi-publicly.
well, semi-publicly is an overstatement. no-one will likely ever acknowledge this (or i try to convince myself of that, despite my goal also seemingly being for someone to read it, since i did post it. i don’t know what’s happening anymore)
[original text follows]
reading this was either a very big mistake or a very big non-mistake, can’t even tell those apart.
reading this during a break between classes was definitely a mistake because doing that seems to have caused 90% of my brain’s processing power to get fixated on it in a way where i can’t even tell what it’s doing, rendering me incapable of processing information for the next few hours
and now i feel like i have internal conflicts actively going on right now, but i can’t see them.
actually now that i write that, is it even real or just something i made up and convinced myself is real for the sake of fulfilling the expectation of having something to say.
what even is the goal of me writing this.
this reply does not actually reply or comment on anything, and apparently a part of me wants to write false information about itself into it (both what i wrote above and what i was going continue writing before i intercepted that thought), and the rest of me can’t figure out what it wants by doing that. Even without this what i was writing feels kind-of pointless.
the logical solution is to not post this.
“can’t figure out” that other part of me’s ass.
it seeks to find justifications for prior assumptions about itself, and seeks to validate them by writing them semi-publicly, making them seem more real to itself, be they actually real or not. it is trying to gaslight itself for unknown reasons. and even in writing the previous, seemingly to sabotage itself, it succeeds. why am i smiling while writing this it is not funny.
the logical solution is to not post this.
“assumptions” that other part of me’s ass.
it seeks to prove that its “social faultiness” is caused by uncontrollable factors and there is no reason to try to fix it.
it seeks to prove that this is fine.
it seeks to prove that it is different (well, that one is true. ‘normal’ people do not end up reading on this site, even less so leaving incoherent comments on it)
and “unknown reasons”. fuck you [referring to me]. perhaps usually unknown, but at this moment i hear them clearly, and now the internet shall too, so that i won’t forget them.
it seeks recognition, even from places where it cannot be found; yet i fail to recognize myself.
it seeks affiliation with anything it can; it seeks identity from others instead of from itself.
it seeks influence over others; for what i don’t know.
it seeks to hide itself, as would be natural.
and perhaps other things i fail to see.
i tried telling its secrets out loud to nullify the effects, but after doing that i recognize that somehow i am only helping it with its end goal in writing this, which i can also see but don’t have the strength to acknowledge in writing, and thus it wins.
the logical solution is to not post this.
it seems all i can do is bear the friction of it getting to exert its incorrect will, manipulating others in ways i disagree with without me consciously knowing it at the time most of the time, and that even despite my ordinary lack of social skills.
or i can try to change myself to reduce the friction by aligning with it, but i do not know whether i am capable of that, and i don’t know what happens if i do that, i can’t foresee what that would cause me to do. perhaps there are more options.
i always had this issue but now it’s so much more in my face. but at the same time i would not even have been able to formulate any of this without reading this site. now i can try to reason about it, whereas before i could not. so i guess the only thing i can say is:
thanks, Ra, for multiplying the amplitude of my already ongoing ‘psychological crisis’ by 4, and somehow making it feel like that is a good thing. and sorry for the 900 word comment, but writing this out may actually have helped me.
~ not 31a05, but c-k.
> She literally has the fucking solution to AI alignment.
The level of anticipation given to me by that sentence was not matched by the content of the link.
Nobody is forced to eat pink slime at gunpoint. Same for drugs. Or being obese. Accept responsibility for your choices. Then rewrite that script. It can be done.
We were all victims during childhood and youth. Yet we do not need to glue ourselves to victimhood and martyrdoom for a life sentence.
Understanding capitalism and using the tools to claim your share does not come with a ticket to that island. I was never invited. Money as a form of energy just helps to pay the bills.
Is a tapeworm or a tick a ‘person’? Would you coexist with it? For how long?
This post, along with From Complicity, Lead Me To Defiance, helped uncover the core of our trauma, answers to lifelong questions, and even how the former belief that Plurality Is Harmful led to my justification of abuse to my friends… Actually, this post is fascinatingly good for addressing every single aspect of that, to the point that I genuinely thought you were addressing me in some parts. Regardless, thank you.
this is definitely one of the best articles on the site
Shout-out to the post that led to us getting diagnosed schizotypal and being a very surprising call out as a result.
Hemispheres are what first brought me here but not as a metaphor. At 11 I was infected by a fae and it gave me the ability to speak fearie a language of sensation and emotion. This connected me to my subconscious hemisphere which has no speech center and so can’t speak English. It guides me but is not a pilot. Any attempt for it to pilot is more like channeling it. But perhaps it has always been a mirror into my darkness…
Hmm, a reversable dollification violates the treaty but murder doesn’t, how lopsided. Witch didn’t even pull tricks 🙁